Season 7, Episode 13
Dr. Christopher Barrie, Jennifer Egan, and Rhett Miller, after the show at Joe's Pub
Pulitzer Prize-winning author Jennifer Egan’s writing is deeply engaged with technology. Years before AI became the obsessive conversational tic of tech bro-licrats everywhere, Jennifer’s The Candy House envisaged a literary fictional version of a Large Language Model that ingests human memories and makes them available to everyone. But now that a technology resembling the one she imagined has finally arrived, Jennifer is skeptical. And as far as her personal feelings about using AI – especially when it comes to generating art – Jennifer has zero interest.
“I should just say I have never used Chat-GPT – I object to it,” Jennifer says. “They stole all of our stuff, and I just feel like, ‘Oh, I’m supposed to pay to use this product? Um, no!’”
Jennifer’s skepticism also comes from concerns about the effect AIs can have on psychologically vulnerable users. Jennifer’s brother was schizophrenic, and he struggled to believe that the voices in his head weren’t real.
“He took his life ten years ago, so I’ll never know,” Jennifer says, “[but] if he’d had a machine telling him that the things he thought were true, and he was right to think them, and he should act on them, it would have been a nightmare.”
A conversation about AI and art
NYU’s Dr. Christopher Barrie is a longtime admirer of Jennifer’s work. In fact, it was Dr. Barrie who suggested Jennifer was the perfect storyteller to engage with AI on SongWriter.
“There are few pieces of art that speak about AI in a way that really captured me,” Dr. Barrie says. “One is the movie Ex Machina, and the other is The Candy House.”
Dr. Barrie certainly understands the skepticism Jennifer and others express about AI. In fact, he explained that within certain academic circles it’s common to refer to a person’s “p(doom),” a numerical shorthand for the probability that the development of AI will lead to apocalypse. While Dr. Barrie says his own p(doom) is in the low single digits, he acknowledges that the unknowns in the AI future landscape are vast and vastly unpredictable. Whatever happens, though, Dr. Barrie emphasizes that AI’s impact on humanity will be deeply influenced by those who control it.
“AI, and how it begins to function in society, is really going to depend on who is at the reins,” Dr. Barrie says. “Who is at the reins right now? Guess what: it’s a bunch of billionaires.”
Rhett soundchecks before the show
The song written in response to The Candy House is by Rhett Miller. When he’s not touring solo or with his band, The Old 97s, Rhett hosts a podcast called Wheels Off. One of his favorite early guests was Jennifer Egan.
“There’s not a lot of giant money in podcasts,” Rhett laughs, “but there are perks and benefits. One of those was getting to interview Jennifer Egan, and becoming friends with her.”
In fact, Rhett sent an early draft of his song to Jennifer for feedback. She told him that she loved it, but asked if Rhett could make it darker. After all, she pointed out, the character he uses as a narrator in “Nearing Eureka” did profound damage when he left his family. As it happens, this was an aspect of the story that contains parallels with Rhett’s early years, and even with his life as a touring musician.
“I have often been the dad who left his family behind, so I very much felt her note,” Rhett says. “So I went back and I dug deeper. It’s tough; it’s tough when you’re not the singer in a rock and roll band.”
Jennifer Egan reads from The Candy House
Season seven of SongWriter is made possible by a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation.
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This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc (funder DOI 501100011730, under the grant https://doi.org/10.54224/31681). The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc.